Ruth Mitchell

BreweryHomebrewingAll
Written By Rob Cadwell

CRAFTING welcoming, inclusive business

We’re a few miles outside of Reading in England at the Hogwood Industrial Estate in Finchampstead and I’m delighted to be joined today by Ruth Mitchell, Managing Director at Elusive Brewing. Ruth has a huge amount of experience across a variety of roles, working at Adnams, West Berkshire Brewery, Utopian Brewing and of course Elusive to name a few. On top of that, Ruth’s a qualified beer sommelier a certified cicerone and all round great person, so who better to talk with about beer and what it’s like working in beer and brewing.

We chat about ruth’s journey through the beer world, how she joined elusive brewing, a typical day, me Too, international women’s day, creating a welcoming and inclusive business, perfect beers and exciting collaborations.

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Timestamps:

  • Why Beer and Adnam's 3:15

  • Charles Wells 8:26

  • West Berkshire Brewery 10:48

  • Beer Me Too and helping make beer a more welcoming and inclusive industry 14:42

  • Utopian 20:33

  • Joining Elusive 23:55

  • A typical day 28:06

  • What's coming up at Elusive 36:40

  • International Women's Day 2024 37:56

  • Beer as a leveller that brings people together 44:00

  • Perfect beer 48:30

  • People that have been instrumental 51:11

Elusive Brewing:

Ruth Mitchell:

Ruth's on Instagram (and twitter archived) as Beerfaerie - or, of course, in person!

Links and resources:

Transcript

Please note this is an automated transcript (so contains errors and mistranslations but should give you a good gist of the conversation):

Ruth: You probably like a pint of half well brewed and interesting, but not stupidly hopped pale in a beautiful country pub next to a river with a bowl of chips on the way. Ruth: Potentially some kind of. Ruth: Definitely with the dog. Ruth: Potentially some kind of board game, nice chats, that kind of thing. Rob (Host): Hello and welcome to we are beer people, a podcast all about the many different people who help us enjoy beer. Rob (Host): I'm your host, Rob Cadwell, and I reckon if you're listening to this, then there's a good chance that you are one of the beer people too. Rob (Host): You might be involved in the world of beer. Rob (Host): You may want to find out more about the industry, or perhaps you simply enjoy drinking the stuff. Rob (Host): So join me now as I have a chat with one of the beer people. Rob (Host): You may or may not be surprised to hear that today we're at an industrial estate and we've just headed through the roller shutter door into the unit itself. Rob (Host): We're a few miles outside of Reading in England at the Hogwood industrial estate in Finch Hampstead, which punches above its weight in craft beer terms as it's home to both elusive brewing and siren craft brew, two big names in craft beer which are within a few moments walk of each other. Rob (Host): And I'm delighted to be joined today by Ruth Mitchell, managing director at Elusive Brewing. Rob (Host): Ruth has a huge amount of experience across a variety of roles, working at Adnam's West Berkshire brewery, utopian Brewing and of course, elusive, to name a few. Rob (Host): On top of that, Ruth's a qualified beer sommelier, a certified cicerone and all round great person. Rob (Host): So who better to talk with about beer and what it's like working in beer and brewing? Rob (Host): We chat with Ruth about her journey through beer, working as a managing director, and we touch on the importance of creating the right ingredients for a welcoming and inclusive brewery and tap room. Rob (Host): And we're starting things off today with a little warm up quiz. Rob (Host): So, cask or keg? Rob (Host): Cask, wart or wirt? Ruth: Wirt? Rob (Host): Can or bottle? Ruth: Can? Rob (Host): Black or west Coast IPA? Ruth: West coast. Rob (Host): Excellent. Rob (Host): Luckily, Andy's left now, so we're okay. Rob (Host): Cellar or fridge temperature? Ruth: Fridge temperature. Rob (Host): Malt forward or hop? Rob (Host): Forward? Ruth: Hops, please. Rob (Host): Lager or ale? Ruth: Ale. Rob (Host): High or low gravity? Ruth: Low. Rob (Host): Hazy or clear? Rob (Host): Clear sunny beer garden or cozy pub? Ruth: Fireplace beer garden. Rob (Host): Serving at a beer festival or drinking at a beer festival? Ruth: Being at home on the sofa. Rob (Host): Goodbye beer festival. Ruth: Avoiding the beer festival. Ruth: No serving is fun. Ruth: Serving a beer, excellent. Rob (Host): So why beer and what has brought you here? Ruth: Why beer? Ruth: I guess kind of at the initial point, it's kind of career driven. Ruth: I wasn't ever desperate to work in beer, but I was really keen to work for a business where I could grow and progress. Ruth: So I grew up in Suffolk, which, if anyone has been, is not known for its industry, but it is home to a very lovely brewery called Adnan's. Ruth: And I grew up drinking Adam's beers and always had my eye on them as a potential place to go and work. Ruth: There's not that many kind of businesses where you could go in at entry level and hope to kind of progress through. Ruth: So essentially, every time there's a job going, I applied for it and on the third time, then they let me in. Rob (Host): Finally, they got the hint. Ruth: They got the hint that I wasn't going to go away. Rob (Host): Excellent. Rob (Host): And so has it always been beer since you were at Adnan's? Ruth: Yes. Ruth: So I joined Adams when I was 23. Ruth: Before that, I worked for Barclays for a bit and for a local enterprise agency for a bit, but since then it's always been beer or drinks. Ruth: I worked for a gin company called Fisher's for a bit, which was really interesting. Ruth: I think beer is probably where it's at for me. Rob (Host): And what was the first role you went into in beer? Ruth: So I went in as a telephone account manager, which is looking after national accounts. Ruth: So wholesalers, pub company, pubs, punch, enterprise, that kind of thing. Ruth: So based in an office, but doing not kind of order taking tele sales, but kind of relationship management, that kind of thing. Rob (Host): So keeping everyone happy? Ruth: Keeping everyone happy. Rob (Host): Excellent. Rob (Host): And finding the kegs when they go missing? Ruth: Finding kegs when they go missing, yeah. Ruth: A lot of sales, but sales through a third party. Rob (Host): Excellent. Rob (Host): And did you carry on doing that for a long time or did you move on to something else at Adnam's? Ruth: So I did that for, I think, about two and a half to three years. Ruth: And I was always keen to kind of progress. Ruth: That was the aim. Ruth: And one of my colleagues in the marketing department was going on maternity leave and so I asked if I could be seconded into her maternity role and they said yes, which is great. Ruth: And then when she came back, there was still space for me to stay in the marketing team and I then took on looking after brewery tours and distillery tours and kind of progressed from there. Rob (Host): Excellent. Rob (Host): And was Adnam's a company like that where you could just progress around and, I don't know, show curiosity and ask to get involved? Ruth: Yeah. Ruth: I think I might have just been really young and bulshy, to be honest. Ruth: I think I was really lucky that Adnams have got a very. Ruth: When I was there, have a very strong female chip executive officer called Karen Hester. Ruth: And as part of her kind of her leadership, she was very keen to help other women progress. Ruth: She joined Adams as a cleaner and over a 20 year career, had done loads of different jobs, ended up kind of at the top. Ruth: And she was really keen to have other people do that. Ruth: So I was given access to a mentoring scheme. Ruth: There was specific kind of training programs each year for who they saw as kind of women within the business who had potential to progress. Ruth: And there was a lot of thought around that. Ruth: Looking at the beer industry now, I think that's incredible and incredibly sort of forward sighted. Ruth: And I don't know if it still happens, to be perfectly honest, I might just been there a particularly lucky time. Ruth: And there was always a thought that I think if you wanted to achieve something, then you could. Ruth: But I think I was also quite happy to be in different departments. Ruth: So I didn't just want to be in sales. Ruth: So I worked in sales and marketing the brewery tours, kind of sit under events, I suppose. Ruth: So there's lots of different bits of the business I was lucky to work in. Rob (Host): That's really good, probably not bad practice for being in a brewery generally, where you have to throw your hat in with any other project that's happening at the time. Rob (Host): How long did you spend at Adnam's? Ruth: So I was there in total for just over eight years. Rob (Host): Oh, wow. Rob (Host): Yeah. Ruth: So quite a long time. Ruth: So I ended up. Ruth: My last role there was as a salesperson, business development manager, I think is probably the right title. Ruth: So I actually moved to Berkshire while I was working for them and was looking after, initially, some national accounts, so wholesalers and groups and then some direct free trade in London and did that for about a year. Ruth: And then there was then some pressure from the business that they wanted me to relocate, and I'd already done that and gone through some sort of personal stuff to do it. Ruth: So I decided that that was the right time. Ruth: Rather than kind of have an argument about it, I would just go and find a different job. Rob (Host): Yeah. Ruth: Which is what I did. Rob (Host): That's fair enough. Rob (Host): And so where did you go after Adnam's? Ruth: I actually went to work for Charles Wells for a little bit, which was really interesting. Ruth: I think a lot of people were quite surprised. Ruth: They don't really exist as a brewery anymore. Ruth: They're now part of Carlsberg Marston's brewing company, whatever the official name is. Ruth: I think people were surprised because they weren't really known having the best beer range. Ruth: And that was ultimately the reason I didn't stay there for particularly long. Ruth: But I did really enjoy my time there. Ruth: And I learned probably more in the year that I was there about kind of commercials and sales and how to put together a contract, how to give people money and tie them up in knots and prevent them buying beer anywhere else. Ruth: All of that kind of stuff, parts of business. Ruth: But it was really interesting. Ruth: So I'd never really sort of seen that commercial side of things before. Ruth: They were far more switched on in terms of how much profit an individual account would make. Ruth: So you could sit there and say, right, they're going to buy this much beer, this much wine, because I also did my wine qualifications while I was there. Ruth: And this is the price I want to sell at. Ruth: This is how they're going to be delivered. Ruth: And it will chuck out a number of what the profit is at the end of it. Ruth: So from a commercial perspective, it was a really fantastic job. Ruth: I just wasn't very comfortable selling the range. Rob (Host): Okay, fair enough. Rob (Host): So it was quite a hard sell, was it? Rob (Host): Or just not something you were invested in? Ruth: I think I found it difficult to be passionate about it. Ruth: Not that's necessarily. Ruth: Not everyone has to be passionate about their job. Ruth: I think I found the type of accounts I was working with probably weren't the environments when I was most comfortable. Ruth: So it's a lot of conservative clubs or working men's clubs, or high volume, but not particularly interesting beer ranges. Ruth: So commercially, very interesting. Ruth: But in terms of really using my skills of talking about beer and selling on the product rather than selling on financials, then that's where it didn't feel like the best fit. Rob (Host): And so where did you go from there? Ruth: So then I went to work for West Barks and joined there looking after key accounts and then end up as national account manager. Ruth: So looking after pub companies and managing the London sales team. Ruth: Yeah, that was initially actually a really positive experience. Ruth: I made some really lovely friends. Ruth: One of my best friends I met got to know working there. Ruth: It was a very interesting environment. Ruth: And if any of your listeners want to google that, then they might get an insight. Ruth: But the company that I worked for went into administration a couple of years ago, a long time after I left, due to various reasons. Ruth: And it's now owned by a different company. Ruth: So if anyone does want to do their research, then they can see what it used to be like. Ruth: But also the company as it is now is not connected to the old brewery. Rob (Host): Yeah, it's different there's a new name. Ruth: Now known as Renegade. Ruth: Still some of the same staff and brew team, and it's one of the most beautiful breweries. Rob (Host): It's such a nice location, isn't it? Rob (Host): Stunning or something like that, where you've got the fields behind you and the sheep and grazing and everything. Ruth: Beautiful tap room, really beautiful brewery, stunning floor, everything, kind of. Ruth: If you're going to build yourself a dream brewery setup, it would be pretty close to that. Rob (Host): You just need the public transport is. Ruth: A bit of an issue. Rob (Host): You're waiting for a while for the trains and things like that. Rob (Host): And I guess at that job, what was like a typical day for you when you're looking after sales and sales team. Ruth: So that job, it was quite kind of field based. Ruth: So a lot of time either visiting accounts, having days and trade with my team, because when I recruited the two guys to report into me, neither of them had worked in beer sales before. Ruth: So it was actually really lovely to get to see them grow and develop. Ruth: And one of them, Dan, is now, he works for Timmy Taylor's. Ruth: So he's still working in beer. Ruth: And he's absolutely. Ruth: He's moved back north and he's setting the world on fire, selling tailors. Ruth: Matt went on to be head of sales and marketing at Leon Sea. Ruth: So actually getting to see them both grow and develop and then go on and do amazing things is really cool. Ruth: And I get a lot of pride out of knowing that I played a small part in that. Rob (Host): Yeah, absolutely. Rob (Host): And after westbarks, you moved to, was it utopian? Ruth: No. Ruth: So then I went and worked for Fisher's. Ruth: Fisher's gin for a bit. Ruth: Again, a really interesting role. Ruth: So Fishers are based in Aldborough in Suffolk. Ruth: So the main thing that attracted me was, firstly, I love gin. Ruth: That is the main thing, actually, one. Rob (Host): Of life's other pleasures. Ruth: Yeah. Ruth: The location was a real plus because I still lived in Berkshire, but I was up in Suffolk a couple of times a month, so I got to see my family and my friends. Ruth: That was really lovely. Ruth: And I also, to be honest, at that point, have got a bit. Ruth: I think I was feeling a bit jaded by the beer industry. Ruth: I'd had a couple of pretty naff experiences at beer festivals. Ruth: The working environment at West Parks was quite toxic at that point. Ruth: And in my head, I thought, well, maybe it's just beer. Ruth: And I thought I had kind of a link to the product I was selling and I could sell the story behind it. Ruth: But quickly discovered that kind of toxicity is not just in beer it definitely exists in spirits as well, which was a bit of a, I don't think it was a shock, but it was a bit of an initial disappointment that. Ruth: Yes, and negative stuff happened within about a week. Ruth: I don't know how much you want to go into the whole, like, dear me too. Rob (Host): No, I mean, do you feel it's changed, like, much? Rob (Host): So I guess we're not going back so far anyway. Rob (Host): But I've certainly seen, I don't know how things were and how things were definitely taken for granted and were a certain way. Rob (Host): And I think they're probably maybe still there, but they're challenged, maybe more openly now. Rob (Host): But I don't know. Rob (Host): Have you seen it change a bit in the beer industry, or do you think that same stuff is still as prevalent as before? Ruth: I think, I want to think it's changing. Ruth: I think that certainly people are more vocal online and we're better at saying, excuse me, you see a thing, you go, that's not okay. Ruth: We're better at doing that. Ruth: I don't really think the problems are taken seriously, though. Ruth: And there's almost now this culture of, oh, I better not say that, or I'm going to get in trouble, or, oh, yeah, now I said that. Ruth: What are you going to, like, you going to tell me that's inappropriate or I shouldn't have done that? Ruth: Almost like it's now people are joking about it, which kind of feels worse. Ruth: It's like, oh, so you know that what you said isn't appropriate, but you decided to say it anyway and now you're going to joke about it. Ruth: Yeah, there's something a bit gross about that, to be honest. Rob (Host): I just feel like there's a pushback, I think, from some of the things that have happened and maybe people are still uncomfortable and don't know how to deal with it. Ruth: And I think, to be honest, the vast amount of people just don't care. Ruth: And that is such a shame. Ruth: But, I mean, we have people who come into the tap room who have watched the brew dog documentary, have read the articles, have seen the tweets and Instagram posts, but because they like the beer or they like the bar or because it's their favorite thing to drink or because they're a shareholder for whatever reason, it doesn't stop them going there. Ruth: Some people it has, but some people, it's just, well, that's kind of how it isn't actually the only power we have is to act with our wallets. Ruth: And so if people are going, oh, yeah, I don't really like it, but. Ruth: And then they're still going and buying beer there. Rob (Host): That's it. Ruth: They don't really care that much, do they? Ruth: Yeah. Rob (Host): We can be vocal and we can speak with actions, can't we? Rob (Host): As well obviously know. Rob (Host): Elusive. Rob (Host): I think you took part in brave noise and you have your code of conduct and things like that. Rob (Host): A number of breweries have started doing, which at least maybe starts to sort of raise the bar a bit for what the expectations are of colleagues and everyone that's interacting with the business. Ruth: I hope so. Ruth: It actually makes it a lot easier for us to see where the line is. Ruth: So our code of conduct, for example, specifically says that we won't knowingly supply our beer or attend a beer festival that doesn't have a code of conduct that we feel is equal or at a higher level to ours. Ruth: Sometimes beer festivals gets pied through wholesalers and it is hard to police. Ruth: But we did quite well in checking that this year. Ruth: And a couple of times where I've emailed people and said, a lot of times, it's like the code of conduct is on festivals website. Ruth: And that's fantastic because that's where we should be getting to. Ruth: A couple of times had festivals who wanted to buy beer, and I said, well, can you send your code of conduct through? Ruth: And they said, we don't have one. Ruth: And came back two weeks later and said, actually, we've chatted to camera hq or whoever it is, and here is our code of conduct. Ruth: So actually, us doing something then made them think about it. Ruth: So that's a real positive. Ruth: I wish that every brewery, not even every brewery, like every business in the entire world, could have a similar. Rob (Host): You almost don't want to have to ask the question in a way, or have to do it should be a given, I guess. Rob (Host): But I think the fact that you are able to do that and you are able to nudge people into that is a positive way of a business working. Ruth: Yeah. Ruth: So we have a code of conduct. Ruth: The tap room is signed up to the f one welcome initiative. Ruth: We have a zero tolerance policy for any form of bullying, discrimination or anything like that. Ruth: And we try really hard to work with companies who have similar values to us. Rob (Host): That's really good. Rob (Host): I think together we can always sort of bring up the standard in the bar that way. Rob (Host): I've always felt, though, whenever I come to Atlasa, it's always a welcoming place. Rob (Host): So you come in, you've got your bright painted walls, you've got your games consoles on, ready to go. Rob (Host): Dogs are welcome which is always a great start. Rob (Host): And you often have families, you know, games to play and all that sort of stuff. Rob (Host): But how important do you think all of those sorts of things are and those ingredients to a successful brewery and tap room? Ruth: I think for a tap room, it's incredibly important. Ruth: We want to be welcoming to as many types of people as possible. Ruth: I think if you only want to kind of appeal to young, hip, craft beer van people, then you can limit in your audience. Ruth: We want to be a place where people can come, they feel comfortable, they will tell their friends, I almost want it to kind of be a community space as much as it can be. Ruth: I mean, we're very small and we're only open a limited amount of time, but I want people to feel as comfortable as they can coming. Ruth: I find it personally really important that people can come on their own and they would feel comfortable in that environment, which is why we really try to kind of welcome people. Ruth: And if there's a person serving behind the bar and there's only one other person in the chat room, the person behind the bar would be chatting to the person. Ruth: If they want to have a conversation, it should be that kind of vibe. Ruth: It's really important. Rob (Host): Yeah. Rob (Host): That sort of warm conviviality. Rob (Host): After gin, was it then the turn of utopian? Ruth: Yeah, it's difficult. Ruth: My time at utopian was really incredibly short. Ruth: So I joined Utopian on the, I think 3 January 2020. Ruth: Is that the year the world decided to end? Rob (Host): It was the year, yeah, that year you had a few more months into it fully went off. Ruth: So I had three months, which were really good fun. Ruth: And then I was furloughed. Ruth: And then during the sexy working, all of that stuff, then I was working, I think one day a week. Ruth: But I was also kind of starting to volunteer at elusive, if you can volunteer for a company. Rob (Host): Were you still in reading? Ruth: Yes, I lived in. Ruth: And so I started to do more with Andy, helping to brew and package and all those kind of things. Ruth: And then I was fully furloughed from utopian again. Ruth: And then by the time the great unlocking plan happened, I think I'd been employed by utopian probably about a year and a half at that point, something like that, maybe a little bit less. Ruth: All of those months do really merge. Rob (Host): Into one as you're talking about it. Rob (Host): I'm just sort of casting my mind back to those. Rob (Host): What happened when that whole furloughing thing where it was sort of on again, off again and where everything was, wasn't it? Rob (Host): And it was a long time and a short time all at the same time, wasn't. Rob (Host): It was just very bizarre. Ruth: But so at the end of that then, I mean, really, I'd enjoyed my time working with Andy so much. Ruth: I didn't want that to stop. Ruth: I felt a lot more reluctant about. Ruth: Not reluctant about going into London. Ruth: I wasn't like, scared to go on a train or anything, but I think I was very conscious that the London beer scene was going to take a long time to kind of get back on its feet. Ruth: And with that, I was very conscious that Utopia had taken me on to do a role in a business environment that fundamentally had changed and maybe didn't, kind of didn't warrant it anymore. Ruth: And so I spoke to Rich and said, actually, andy's offered me a job. Ruth: So rich, who is MZ of utopian, and he was overjoyed. Ruth: And it's interesting, we've been doing Zoom calls where me, Andy and rich and load of our other beerie friends were all on this same call. Ruth: We'd done them every week throughout lockdown. Ruth: And I think he was probably really pleased, firstly, that he was happy I was going to go and do a job that I really wanted to do. Ruth: And secondly, I think, if we're both honest, it probably saved him from having a couple of months down the line, having to make a relatively difficult business decision. Ruth: But, yeah, it kind of felt like the right thing to do at that time and I'm really glad did. Ruth: And you soaking yours, doing incredibly well. Ruth: And Rachel, who now looks after London, is awesome. Ruth: So, yeah, excellent. Rob (Host): Lovely lagers. Ruth: Yes. Ruth: All the things happen the way they're meant to happen. Rob (Host): So how did you first hear about elusive? Ruth: So, I'd known Andy through Twitter for several years. Ruth: We actually met. Ruth: We met for the first time doing the Burma beer mile in a group that was arranged by Steve from beer talk show. Ruth: And I went on my own. Ruth: I didn't know anyone apart from Steve, who I think I might have met once. Ruth: I was absolutely terrified to go and meet strangers on the Internet, but that was kind of what you did. Ruth: It seemed quite like the beginning of beer Twitter. Ruth: That was a really normal thing. Ruth: And Andy and his wife Jane were actually there, but I don't remember. Ruth: I don't remember meeting him, which now feels incredibly bad and rude, but there is a picture of, like, literally backs. Ruth: So I first met him there, but then when I moved to Wokingham in how long it is nine years ago, then obviously knew that Andy was around. Ruth: He hadn't started elusive yet, but we'd see each other at beer events and things. Ruth: And then when he started lucid, I went to a couple events and came and drank at SAP broom things. Ruth: So we kind of got to say, got to know each other online, but then kind of became mates in real life. Ruth: And so then when lockdown happened and he was tweeting, saying, I'm still out at 10:00 at night doing deliveries, and my other half and I were both furloughed, both from beer jobs, sitting at home about to kill each other. Ruth: Could we perhaps help you? Ruth: And then we could leave our houses and it would be legal, essential, and it's essential, and everything would be better for everyone. Ruth: And thankfully, Andy said yes. Rob (Host): Brit. Rob (Host): So it started out as helping out, getting out of the house. Ruth: It was literally. Ruth: Yeah. Ruth: He tweeted something about 10:00 at night because he was doing loads of home deliveries to people because everyone wanted their lockdown beers. Ruth: And I just messaged him. Ruth: I'd replied, or dms, and said, you do know that I'm literally 3 miles away. Ruth: Would you like some help? Ruth: And he said, yes. Ruth: So we started off doing deliveries, and then I started doing a bit of brewing and bottling and canning and tap room Paul, my other half, had not lost enthusiasm by then, but I think he was quite excited at the prospect of 8 hours on his own without me in the house. Rob (Host): As long as one of you was leaving the house, that was fine. Ruth: Do go and do brewing. Ruth: That sounds like a great idea. Ruth: I'm going to sit here and play games. Ruth: Okay, cool. Ruth: Yeah. Ruth: And then just carried on from there. Rob (Host): Excellent. Rob (Host): And so when was it that you were sort of, like, brought on in an official role? Ruth: Official role was April 2 and a half years ago. Ruth: I think my initial title was head of sales, marketing and events. Rob (Host): Okay. Ruth: Something like that. Ruth: Which in a year where there were very few events, wasn't really a thing. Ruth: But I started off looking after sales, marketing, social media, and the tap room, and then gradually kind of took on more and more. Ruth: Whether that was a good idea or not, it probably remains to be seen. Ruth: But the other thing about being a small business is, although we all have areas that we look after, if there's certain things happening, we do all get involved. Ruth: So everyone works in the tap room? Ruth: Some more than others, but we do all do shifts. Ruth: We all work in production. Ruth: If we're doing packaging, we all help to mash in. Ruth: So we've still got a manual brew kit. Ruth: So it does ideally take two people. Ruth: So if there's only two people on site, whoever those two people are. Ruth: One of them is pouring some grain and one of them is stirring. Ruth: That's the thing. Ruth: So we all do get involved in lots of different things, which is really, I think, really nice. Ruth: Yeah. Rob (Host): So I was going to ask, what would a typical day be like then? Rob (Host): And I'm going to say that, and obviously a cliche, but every day is different. Rob (Host): But what might happen if you were turning up for work? Rob (Host): What might you have going on? Rob (Host): What would you be pitching? Rob (Host): In. Ruth: Main, the way we generally split things is that Andy looks after things coming in and the making of beer, and then I look after the beer going out, sales, marketing. Ruth: So I'd make sure that any orders that are coming overnight have been put onto our computer system. Ruth: Sometimes that does involve doing the order fulfillment as well. Ruth: Again with four people. Ruth: So if two of us are in the brewery and one person is out delivering, then if somebody needs to go in a box and go out to a customer, that's generally me. Ruth: It feels like there's been a lot of box filling past few weeks, to be perfectly honest. Ruth: But I would then, in terms of operations, be looking at what's going on over the next few weeks. Ruth: What kind of moving parts are there? Ruth: Have we done something like agree to be in four different places at once? Ruth: And if we have, how can we undo that? Ruth: To make it workable? Ruth: Do we need to think about getting empty casks? Ruth: Do labels need to go off to print all those things? Ruth: That kind of. Ruth: If they don't happen, then we can't get beer out of the door. Ruth: Think about that and then also think about how we can really kind of boost our sales. Ruth: It's a particularly difficult trading environment at the moment. Ruth: We're doing okay. Ruth: I feel saying we're doing well would be a real kind of stupid thing to say, to be honest, because then it could all come crumbling down tomorrow. Ruth: But particularly, we want to focus on getting people into the tap room and encouraging people to buy others online, as well as growing our trade customer base. Ruth: So it's making sure we're doing kind of regular social media interactions, setting up events, making sure we kind of. Ruth: There's always something interesting for us to talk about that's really important. Ruth: It feels like a little bit of everything. Ruth: Every day is different. Ruth: If the tap room is open, then I might be working in the tap room. Ruth: If we're packaging, then I'll be putting labels on cans. Ruth: So put label on the can and then work out how to sell those cans and how to get those cans out to people who've bought them, that chain of work. Rob (Host): How do you divide your time like that? Rob (Host): Are you dictated to by when something has to happen? Rob (Host): Or can you say, right, Monday I'm going to do this, Tuesday I'll do this. Ruth: I try to be quite kind of priority focused. Ruth: So I was always taught, and I still use the kind of square where it's urgent and important and then not urgent and not important in a square. Ruth: So if something is important and urgent, that's the thing that gets done. Ruth: If it's something that's not urgent and not important, that's the email that sits in my inbox for about a year and a half, doomed to never move into another box, never come out again. Ruth: And then if it's not important but urgent, or vice versa, then there are things that happen next. Ruth: So I try really hard to kind of keep those things in mind. Ruth: So often there's like fun stuff that I'd really prefer to be doing, but the things that are really important and time sensitive are the things that have to be done. Ruth: Trying to be a grown up about it, I think. Ruth: I know, but the problem we have is that, again, because we're a small team, sometimes I'm like, oh, I could just go and do that. Ruth: That'd be really fun. Ruth: They won't make any money and it's not really the best business decision, but what the h***, it'd be great. Ruth: And actually, then you spend another two weeks trying to catch up from doing the fun thing. Ruth: And actually, I'd rather be focusing on driving the business forward. Ruth: And that also gives other people the flexibility that they can go and see the fun things, and that's important. Rob (Host): Yeah. Rob (Host): So I was interested, when you're talking about separation of roles and things like that, are there areas where you collaborate as well? Rob (Host): So, like coming up with new recipes or collaborations and things like that, is that something that everyone at elusive will have an input? Ruth: I mean, in terms of beers and recipes and collabs, that tends to sit with Andy and I mainly we decide that. Ruth: So we decide the brew schedule together. Ruth: We try to sit down normally once a month, maybe a bit more frequently if we've got kind of more moving parts. Ruth: And we'll try to plan out, kind of definitely plan out like two months ahead of ourselves and then kind of roughly plan out maybe another month after that. Ruth: We're not yet in a position where we're like planning an entire year that feels like a bit much. Ruth: And it also probably would take some of the, it probably take away some of the opportunities because we do so many collaborations and people approach us and say, would you brew with us or could we do a beer for this thing? Ruth: I think if we were planned a year in advance, we'd lose that flexibility. Ruth: But that's something we both do. Ruth: We both get involved in label design, we do both get involved in beer naming. Ruth: But for some reason, my names normally get kind of vetoed and overwritten at the last moment. Rob (Host): So is it a democracy here? Ruth: That's fine. Ruth: I think there are some things that it is still Andy's business, and if he wants to be able to record a certain thing, then I really. Ruth: That's quite fine. Ruth: It's absolutely fine. Rob (Host): The pixel sort of thing sounds quite interesting. Rob (Host): Like the can design. Ruth: Yeah. Rob (Host): How do you go about coming up with those ideas, the design, learning those? Ruth: Yeah, so a mixture of things. Ruth: Sometimes we purchase images or purchase the rights to images. Ruth: Sometimes we purchase an image and then we'll draw an asset to go onto it, or we'll adapt the image in some way. Ruth: So we'll change the color, take out the sky, swap the sky, remove a tree, move a pebble a foot to the left, whatever it might be. Ruth: Probably not a pebble. Ruth: Sometimes I draw the whole thing, which I do really enjoy doing, but it does take quite a lot of time and again. Ruth: So in that kind of urgent and important thing, urgent is getting the can label to print so we can sell it. Ruth: And it's obviously important. Ruth: It looks nice, but sometimes it's not the time to sort of draw an entire design. Ruth: I'm not a born designer. Ruth: I really enjoy doing it, and I love seeing the finished product. Ruth: But the skills I have are probably pretty rudimentary, which just means it takes me a really long time. Ruth: So I'm sure that other people will have loads of gadgets and ways of drawing things because we draw in pixels. Ruth: I'm literally sitting there kind of like clicking every square to make it the color I want it to be or to form the thing I want it to be. Ruth: So it does take a long time. Rob (Host): Yeah. Rob (Host): But they're super iconic cans. Rob (Host): Iconic gets used a lot, but you always know an elusive can when you see it on the shelf, you can find your way to it. Ruth: I always think that's a sign of a strong brand. Ruth: And Andy gets all credit for that, really. Ruth: I think particularly now, there are so many breweries out there and you see cans that are so beautiful. Ruth: And we buy people's beer for the tap room and the can we come in. Ruth: It looks lovely. Ruth: It feels lovely. Ruth: It's like this is just a gorgeous thing. Ruth: But then you put it in the fridge and it doesn't sell. Ruth: And it might not sell because it doesn't actually say what the beer is. Ruth: That's a common issue. Ruth: Doesn't say the beer name or the ABV or the style, but often you've got things that look like a really amazing range when they're together. Ruth: But then you put them mixed in with other beers and they don't stand out. Ruth: And for our beers, we always want them to look like they're elusive beers. Ruth: They're part of our range. Ruth: But also, if just one beer was on a shelf with 100 other breweries, you want it to stand out and be able to instantly say, that is an elusive beer. Ruth: And it looks different to all the rest. Rob (Host): So you've obviously got a lot on your plate at the moment, but what have you got coming up at elusive? Ruth: So we've just taken on a new business unit. Ruth: When we're talking, it's now the middle of November. Rob (Host): We're sat in it now. Ruth: We're sat in the business unit now. Rob (Host): There's an office, there's a dog bed. Ruth: There's a dog bed. Ruth: There's no dog today. Ruth: And he would have been a bit barky, I think. Ruth: So we're trying to get the tap room, essentially, our plan is to have a bigger tap room, which will be in this new unit. Ruth: It will still very much be a kind of a multi use space. Ruth: And Monday's Thursday will still be storage. Ruth: But it does mean that when we're open to tap room, we should get a little bit more inside space, which is really important for us. Ruth: And then we'll have, in our current tap room, we'll be able to expand our fermentation capacity to be able to make more beer. Ruth: So that's kind of the plans for the next probably three to six months is firstly getting the tap room up and running and then bringing in that new fermentation capacity, seeing how we can kind of juggle the schedule, getting used to having more stock, which means I have to do more selling, which I'm actually quite looking forward to. Ruth: So that's kind of the main overarching thing. Ruth: Before then, we have some other kind of smaller projects coming up, some small collaborations, some new releases. Ruth: We just started talking about our International Women's Day collaboration brew, which we do each year in collaboration with the Malt Miller. Rob (Host): Nice. Ruth: Yeah. Ruth: So lots of, as your listeners probably know, lots of people do beers during such a woman's day. Ruth: We wanted to do something a little bit different because so much of elusive is about home brewing. Ruth: We kind of wanted to bring that in. Ruth: And home brewing really is a very male dominated hobby. Ruth: So what we really want to do is to encourage more women to give it a try and show that it can be a really easy, fun, fulfilling thing to do. Ruth: So we'll be launching our International Women's Day homebrew kits, hopefully the first week in January. Ruth: We said that last year and it was second week, the first half of January. Rob (Host): January is an OD time, though, isn't it's? Rob (Host): So hard to pin anything down at that point. Rob (Host): But that's cool. Rob (Host): So people can prepare and the idea. Ruth: Is that we would side on a beer and we'll bring it with us. Ruth: The Malt Miller and another brewery. Ruth: I can probably tell you who that is. Ruth: That's confirmed. Ruth: So that's going to be burnt mill this year, which is really cool. Ruth: So sorry, in the first year, good chemistry last year. Ruth: Next year will be burnt mill, which is amazing because Sophie Jonder is just such a brewing icon. Ruth: So the idea is that the kits will be available to buy from the malt Miller. Ruth: And people can adjust their kits, I suppose, so they can pick different hops or adjuncts or anything else they want to put into the base recipe. Ruth: We will brew a commercial batch of the beer, which will then be released in late February. Ruth: And then we'll get together, hopefully the Saturday after International Women's Day, which this year, International Women's Day is always the same day, but the Saturday is April. Ruth: No, March 9. Ruth: And then people will hopefully bring their homebrew along and we all try the homebrew and see what people have done with the recipes and compare notes. Ruth: So it's a really nice kind of collaborative project. Ruth: It's not a competition. Ruth: It's very much about sharing knowledge and having a good time and making friends and meeting new people. Ruth: Last year it was wonderful. Ruth: We had a lovely group of women come and bring their beers to Bristol. Ruth: This year it'll be in lovely. Ruth: We're starting planning that and then other things down the road as well. Rob (Host): That's really cool. Ruth: I'm really excited about that one. Rob (Host): That'd be a good one. Rob (Host): And it's cool to do it that way, so you can be ready to drink it and enjoy it, celebrate it together. Rob (Host): Around International Women's Day as well. Ruth: We wanted to have a project that allowed as many people to get involved as possible. Ruth: You don't have to be a woman to brew it. Ruth: You don't have to be a woman to join in it's just about raising awareness more than anything else and having a good time. Rob (Host): Very nice. Rob (Host): And can you say what the style of beer will be, or is that going to be under wraps until it's announced? Ruth: I think I'll leave that for people to find out in January. Rob (Host): A nice teaser for everyone there. Ruth: It's not a black IPA. Rob (Host): We'll do something else, this one. Rob (Host): And we're obviously in mid November at the moment. Rob (Host): And you've got Clabergeddon coming up. Ruth: Yes. Ruth: So Clabergeddon is actually this week as we're talking. Ruth: It's on Friday. Ruth: The main stress of Clavageddon actually has already happened, except I do have another hundred social media posts it feels like to get out. Ruth: But Clavagedon is something we do every year. Ruth: So this year it's us plus eleven other breweries. Ruth: Everyone's matched up to brew. Ruth: Two collaborations, one kind of home and one away. Ruth: So this year we as a brewery have brewed with Polly's and with Baker's dozen. Ruth: And we've got some amazing brewers involved. Ruth: Abidale and Moonwake and Shoreshore Tartarus. Ruth: I probably should name all of them, but I can't off top of my head. Rob (Host): We can direct people to the information. Ruth: They can find it all. Ruth: And then those beers are available. Ruth: In this year, we've got 25 sets of venues, so I think there's actually 30 venues, but some are splitting the beer between two places. Ruth: But it's specifically an on trade event, so the whole point is to support pubs. Ruth: It's not about us having the beer in our tap room, it's not about selling cans online, although they will be available. Ruth: But we don't do like a Clabageddon can set or anything, really. Ruth: It's about getting people to go to pubs, because if you want to try those beers, you have to go to the pubs involved to try them. Ruth: They won't be available anywhere else until the day after. Ruth: Yeah, it's really, again, an important thing to. Ruth: Pubs are really struggling at the moment, and so having something we can do to help them is great. Rob (Host): Yeah, absolutely. Rob (Host): I think people are feeling the pinch, aren't they? Ruth: Yeah. Ruth: You can just see it versus not even versus time last year, but versus kind of last spring, everything felt quite kind of buoyant. Rob (Host): There's a lot of pent up optimism. Ruth: Yeah, it's. Ruth: Now buoyant is really not the term I would use. Ruth: Everyone's struggling. Ruth: It's really difficult. Ruth: We're selling a luxury product at the end of the day. Ruth: So I feel like we've got to work harder and do better to justify people spending their money on our beer. Ruth: Because if you haven't got very much spare, then you really want to be getting something special. Ruth: And that's kind of why, for me, the tap room experience is so important. Ruth: If people are coming and they're going to go out for two pints on a weekend once, come have a really good time, that feels more important. Ruth: When people have got less spare money, then that value not necessarily like, being cheaper, but giving more feels even more important. Rob (Host): Yeah. Rob (Host): If they're only going to go out once a month or something like that. Ruth: Make it really good. Ruth: Yeah. Rob (Host): Memorable and all that. Rob (Host): Absolutely. Rob (Host): It probably goes on to asking you, what's the most important thing about beer, do you think? Ruth: I think for me, the most important thing about beer is that it brings people together. Ruth: It doesn't really see class or income or anything else. Ruth: Probably does see income at the moment, to be honest. Ruth: But it feels like a real leveler. Ruth: Like pubs feel like a real kind of a place where people can come together and it doesn't really matter your background or why you're there, it puts everyone in the same place. Ruth: And I feel particularly that if you've got people who are passionate about beer, we have people who come to our tap room and you would never kind of put them together as being mates in 100 years, but they'll happily sit there and chat about our latest release or something that's happened in the news or what other breweries are doing. Ruth: I think that's a thing that probably isn't there with other. Ruth: It's probably there with music. Ruth: It's the other kind of thing that I think is pretty similar, but I don't see it being there with other products, particularly. Ruth: So I like that it brings people together and it kind of puts everyone on the same footing with beer. Ruth: It is kind of available to everyone. Ruth: There is a very low entry point if people want to go to local weatherspoons. Ruth: I don't, but I think it'd be really t***** of me to say that people shouldn't. Ruth: So, actually, if you've got a couple of quid and you can go and have a half or a pint with other people in a warm space and have a chat, and that is now more than ever a really valuable thing. Rob (Host): Definitely. Rob (Host): And going on from that, if you could change one thing about the beer industry, beer culture, what would it be? Ruth: I think the beer industry is a place to work. Ruth: I would kind of change the culture a little bit. Ruth: I think there's still this kind of view that working stupid long hours and having no work life balance and working for 12 hours and then going to the pub is really good and cool and encouraged. Ruth: And actually, it might be if that's the kind of thing that you enjoy doing. Ruth: But that doesn't mean you should look down on people who want to do their job and go home. Ruth: It's a really weird industry that so many people have their job and their hobby, and it's all mixed up. Ruth: And that makes it great, because it means you're working with your friends and you're working on something you really care about. Ruth: But I do feel sometimes that goes too far and can have a negative effect on people's mental health. Ruth: It means that your kind of balance of how you look after your mind and your body and everything else gets a bit out of whack. Ruth: And there aren't many other jobs where you would be expected to do your job and then go out and do your job, and then on the weekend, go and do your job and then chat about your job to your friends. Ruth: It does feel like that separation has got a bit kind of muddy. Ruth: I do feel it's kind of getting better slowly, but I think particularly kind of in the craft beer arena, but actually not limited to. Ruth: That's something we should potentially be more conscious of if we want to have people who can stay in their jobs long term and be happy and develop, particularly in production. Ruth: Like, production, like working in a brewery is hard, so you do a hard physical job, and then there's also this kind of thought that you should go out and drink, which sadly, we cannot say is very good for you. Ruth: And then we wonder why you've got a load of people who are sitting there coming their late 30s, early 40s, being absolutely knackered, and that might be why. Ruth: So if we want people to come into the industry and it be a lifelong career, I think we really need to start thinking about that a bit more. Rob (Host): Yeah. Rob (Host): So there's a real potential for boundaries to be blurred during this. Rob (Host): Definitely just doing the same thing in work and out of work. Rob (Host): And like you say, if you love it, it's hard for you to probably turn that off or hold back sometimes. Ruth: But I think it can also cause people to fall out of love with it, which is a real shame. Rob (Host): Coming back into the positive lands. Ruth: Yes. Rob (Host): Can you tell us about what your perfect beer is? Ruth: My perfect beer probably depends more on the place than the beer itself. Ruth: Howie said earlier that I'd like a pub beer garden. Ruth: It's probably like a pint of cask, well brewed and interesting, but not stupidly hopped pale in a beautiful country pub next to a river with a bowl of chips on the way. Ruth: Potentially some kind of. Ruth: Definitely with the dog. Ruth: Potentially some kind of board game, nice chats, that kind of thing. Rob (Host): Love it. Ruth: I think it doesn't. Ruth: Yeah. Ruth: It's, for me, far more about the experience of having the beer rather than the actual beer itself. Rob (Host): I love the detail that the chips weren't there, they were on the way. Ruth: And it was the chips incoming. Rob (Host): The anticipation of the chips was high. Rob (Host): And you've probably answered, what do you look for in a pub? Rob (Host): But I think you've probably said that already. Ruth: The things I look for in a pub is, can I, as a woman, go in on my own, sit and have a few beers, maybe chat, read a book, look my phone, read paper, whatever, and feel happy and comfortable doing that. Ruth: Because if I can, then I'm probably guaranteed, if I go with friends or my partner or whatever, then pretty guaranteed to have a lovely time. Ruth: But if I wouldn't feel comfortable going on my own, that's a big turn off. Ruth: Again, with pubs. Ruth: For me, the beer is kind of secondary. Ruth: I would far rather go to a really welcoming pub that's got kind of an average beer range than go somewhere that's got, like, the most exciting beer range in the world. Ruth: But you don't feel comfortable. Ruth: If I want to drink amazing beer, I can drink it at home. Ruth: It's available, it's there. Ruth: All good bottle shops, et cetera. Ruth: But for a pub, it needs to be about the welcome and the space and the feeling of it first. Rob (Host): I really agree with you about the welcome. Rob (Host): I think the thing I don't ever appreciate is that as a white, middle aged man can walk into most pubs and not often think about those things in the same way. Ruth: I think you might do, though, especially if you go somewhere where you're not local. Ruth: I remember when I was working in sales and going into pubs. Ruth: It's not just women who get it. Ruth: Like, you walk into a pub and you've got five normally blokes. Ruth: Sorry, but it could be anyone, five regulars sitting at the bar. Ruth: And if all those heads sort of swivel towards the door as you walk in and they go silent, I've definitely had that. Rob (Host): I just thought that was me. Ruth: That can just be they're about to say, hi, how are you? Ruth: Or it can be a bit of an intimidating environment. Rob (Host): You've mentioned a few of them. Rob (Host): But have there been any people in your career that you think have been particularly instrumental in helping you, guiding you? Ruth: Yeah. Ruth: How many people can I shout out? Ruth: I would say people who have been instrumentalizing, people to look up to. Ruth: I would put Melissa Cole pretty high at the top of that list. Ruth: I would now call Melissa a friend, but for a very long time, I was absolutely petrified of her. Ruth: Not because she did anything wrong, but just I was so in awe of her knowledge and her personality and her charisma and that she could command a room and that she just knew so much about beer and could talk about it in such an amazing way. Ruth: And I feel very lucky to have, on occasions, done events with her or shared a stage with her. Ruth: And I think she's a pretty phenomenal human. Ruth: Still slightly scared, but just because I feel that, yeah, she's someone I definitely can look up to and respect. Ruth: I would say that Fergus Fitzgerald, who is now, what is he? Ruth: Production director at Adnam. Ruth: So he looks, after all, brewing all, distilling all everything wines. Ruth: Again, I feel really lucky to call a friend. Ruth: And Ferguson's incredibly supportive, particularly when I was doing my kind of beer smellier training and learning about the brewery tours. Ruth: No question was too small, no question was answered. Ruth: Like I was being stupid. Ruth: It was just very kind of straight. Ruth: And he's been incredibly supportive of everything I've done. Ruth: So he's yet another person I would really kind of. Ruth: So I wouldn't have my beard knowledge, to extent I do, without him, or certainly not. Ruth: I don't think it would have come so easily. Rob (Host): So thank you very much, Ruth. Rob (Host): That was brilliant. Rob (Host): Where can people follow you and keep up to date with everything about elusive? Ruth: So you can follow elusive on Twitter at elusive Brew, on Instagram at elusive brew and on Facebook at elusive brewing. Ruth: And you can sign up to our main list on the website and all the usual stuff. Ruth: You can no longer find me on Twitter, which is a bit of a recent change. Ruth: Yeah, Twitter asked me to change my password and I didn't want to, but they told me I had to anyway, which would have been fine if I hadn't had that password linked to a 15 year old oh, no email address. Ruth: And for about 5 seconds I was devastated that I would never get my Twitter account back. Ruth: And now side, I really didn't care. Ruth: So you can't find. Ruth: Well, you can find me on Twitter. Ruth: You can see an archive of 15 years worth of tweets if you go to my profile. Ruth: But you can find me on Instagram at Beer Fairy, which is beerfaerie. Ruth: You can find me occasionally on Facebook, but I don't really like it. Ruth: You can find me in real life as a person to chat to at the lutheran tap room and events. Ruth: And personally, I think that real life is probably the one to focus on. Rob (Host): Fantastic. Rob (Host): Cheers to that. Rob (Host): Thank you very much to you for joining. Rob (Host): And thank you to Ruth for her. Rob (Host): Time and sharing her story. Rob (Host): You can find links to the breweries. Rob (Host): Mentioned and the social media handles in the show notes. Rob (Host): And this is the part where I ask for your help. Rob (Host): If you haven't done so already, please subscribe to the podcast, leave a review or rating, or share it with others. Rob (Host): This really helps us out and helps other people find the podcast, particularly as we're starting out. Rob (Host): And you can follow us on social media search for Wearbeer people all one word. Rob (Host): You can also email us at wearebeerpeoplepod@gmail.com let us know what you think, share your thoughts, and if you have any recommendations for beer people you'd like to hear from. Rob (Host): And until next time, don't forget you, me, us, them, we are all beer people.

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