Andy Barnes

BreweryHomebrewingAllFounder
Written By Rob Cadwell

'A hobby that got out of control'

We are chatting with Andy Barnes, who co-owns Dolphin Brewery with his wife Laura. And they’ve built up quite the reputation; crafting delicious sour beers, that blend seasonal fruits and combine yeasts and bacteria to create unique, in perfectly packaged bottles.

Andy describes how his hobby of homebrewing got out of control - after winning a homebrew competition he went from brewing 25 litre batches to transforming his garage into a brewery.

we recorded the conversation in the hidden gem that is the cellar of the Three Guineas Pub by reading railway station.

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Transcript

Please note this is an automated transcript (so will certainly contain errors and mistranslations but should give you a good gist of the conversation):

Andy: You. Andy: I do sometimes worry that sour is used as a term that might be kind of off putting to people. Andy: So the beer world described the beers that I make as sour, but I mean, in another parallel dimension, they might be described as fruit beer, and sour just wouldn't be a term that would be at the forefront as a descriptor and sourness might be an element to it, but it wouldn't be the the first word that you've necessarily come to. Rob (Host): Hello and welcome to we are beer people, a podcast all about the many different people who help us enjoy beer. Rob (Host): I'm your host, Rob Cadwell, and I reckon if you're listening to this, then there's a good chance that you are one of the beer people too. Rob (Host): You might be involved in the world of beer. Rob (Host): You may want to find out more about the industry, or perhaps you simply enjoy drinking the stuff. Rob (Host): So join me now as I have a chat with one of the beer people. Rob (Host): It's November and we're just outside Reading railway station, where we're meeting today's guest in the fantastic cellar space of the three guineas pub. Rob (Host): We'll be chatting with Andy Barnes, who co owns Dolphin Brewery with his wife Laura. Rob (Host): And they've built up quite the reputation crafting delicious beers that blend seasonal fruits and combine yeasts and bacteria to create unique brews in perfectly packaged bottles. Rob (Host): Andy describes how his hobby of home brewing got out of control after winning a homebrew competition. Rob (Host): He went from brewing 25 liter batches to transforming his garage into a nanobrewery. Rob (Host): So what do you say we head out of the cold and hear their story in the warm embrace of the publish? Rob (Host): So, sweet or sour? Andy: Sour. Rob (Host): Mixed. Rob (Host): Firm or single strain? Andy: Oh, that's got to be mixed firm. Rob (Host): I would say nicely on brands. Rob (Host): Lager or ale? Andy: I think ale for me. Rob (Host): Yeah, bottle or can? Andy: Well, again, as most of my beers are in bottle, I think I'll probably have to choose that one. Andy: Bottle. Rob (Host): Malt forward or hop forward or fruit forward? Andy: Probably fruit forward with the sort of styles of beers I make, but I'm a big fan of Maltford beers as well. Rob (Host): Whole fruit or puree? Andy: Oh, that's definitely whole fruit from my perspective. Rob (Host): Bottle conditioned or barrel aged? Andy: Oh, does it have to be one or the other? Andy: Let's go barrel aged? Rob (Host): I think grape or rhubarb? Andy: Oh, that's another good one. Andy: I'm a big fan of both grapes and rhubarb as fruits to use in my beers, so picking one is difficult. Andy: But I've just produced quite a lot of interesting beers using grape skin. Rob (Host): So let's go with grapes onto the yeast and bacteria. Rob (Host): Now, sacramices or bret and myces. Andy: Yeah, well, they both have a role, but I'm a big fan of using Bret in my beers. Rob (Host): Nice. Rob (Host): And lactobacillus or pediococcus again. Andy: Yeah, lacto plays a much more dominant role in the beers that I make. Andy: So. Andy: Yeah, got to go with that one. Rob (Host): Excellent. Rob (Host): Well, thank you very much for joining me today, Andy. Andy: No problem at all. Rob (Host): For those that don't know you, can you tell us who you are and what you do? Andy: Sure. Andy: Yeah. Andy: So my name's Andy and I co run dolphin brewery with my wife Laura. Andy: Dolphin brewery is located just outside reading. Andy: It's a very small brewery. Andy: We operate in a garage and we make beers that are typified by being inspired by the seasons. Andy: Often kind of fruity and sour or aged and characterful or dry and drinkable. Rob (Host): And can you take us back to the very beginning? Rob (Host): Why beer and what was it that brought you here? Andy: Yeah, well, I think that's probably two different things that got out of control. Andy: So the first one being kind of my enthusiasm for beer and trying different beers and beer styles, which led on to home brewing and then kind of getting rather carried away with that. Andy: I think I'd probably trace back my enthusiasm for beer for probably my kind of, like, early to mid 20s when I started going to camera beer festivals quite frequently. Andy: And specifically the reading camera beer festival, which was like a large beer festival in the center of reading, close to where I lived, and an opportunity to try a huge range of different beers. Andy: And I think that was definitely the point where I noticed that I was starting to talk about beers more, think about them more. Andy: We would kind of work our way through the programs and then alongside mates, kind of talk about what beer you had and where it was from. Andy: I think before that, I was very much into pubs and pub culture, but less kind of focus on the specific beer that I was drinking. Andy: So, yeah, very much a kind of a real l kind of cask beer drinker throughout my. Andy: Then I guess when the kind of so called kind of craft beer scene started in London, I had friends who were living there who were very much kind of enthusiastic about that. Andy: And I think to start off with, I was probably a little bit resistant to it. Andy: I was familiar with my certain style of drinking. Andy: I liked a nice pint that was kind of quite drinkable. Andy: And to be honest, I found some of the beers kind of. Andy: Well, they were served in. Andy: Often served in smaller measures and physier and highly flavored. Andy: And it did take me a little bit of time to kind of appreciate those. Andy: But I think it was 2013. Andy: I went to the McKellar kind of craft beer convention in Copenhagen, and I think when I went there, I was really kind of exposed to the kind of extremes of where beer could be taken, and there was all so many kind of pushing the boundaries and what certainly seemed to me at the time, kind of really interesting takes on beer. Andy: And I think I kind of appreciated at that point how much creativity there was in beer. Andy: And I was certainly looking for a kind of. Andy: I felt like I was kind of a suppressed, creative person without kind of an avenue to be able to kind of deploy that creativity. Andy: I think I was certainly a failed musician, and I tried lots of other different things. Andy: I think I then started thinking about, well, maybe I should start trying to homebrew. Andy: And I started home brewing in 2013, as lots of people do, and with a fairly kind of basic kind of homebrew setup was homebrewing to start off with. Andy: Trying to, well, just having fun, really trying to kind of emulate some of the kind of the beer styles that I'd been sampling on my travels. Andy: And, yeah, I think there was definitely a tipping point where I kind of realized, I think it was probably coinciding with the fact that I was falling out of love with my day job, and I was really looking for something else to do. Andy: My day job wasn't in beer. Andy: I kind of have kind of a project management, project management tea background. Andy: I think I was probably looking for something else to do. Andy: I was kind of in my mid 30s, really. Andy: So I was conscious that it was going to be difficult for me to financially, to get an entry level kind of brewing role. Andy: I think a lot of the kind of early starting jobs in breweries are, well, often you kind of just go and volunteer and just help out. Andy: And financially, I wasn't really able to do that. Andy: So I went on a bit of a tangent, really, which is I was able to get on to a part time brewing master's course at Nottingham University. Andy: I certainly wasn't anywhere close to being qualified for it. Andy: The entry requirements were an undergraduate science qualification, which I didn't have. Andy: I had an awful lot of enthusiasm on my application form, which was met by a call from the convener of the course, who basically rang me and said, I can sense that there's a passion for brewing here, but when was the last time you studied science at academic level? Andy: And I was embarrassed to say that was at GCSE level. Andy: So that certainly wasn't enough to get me on the course. Andy: But he was very gracious in allowing me to do the first module, essentially, and see how I got on. Andy: And that ultimately, that ultimately led on to me completing the whole thing kind of five years later. Andy: And then having completed the masters, I then felt like I really had to do something with it. Andy: And that's kind of when I started thinking about turning the brewery into a commercial setup. Andy: I was homebrewing in, it's my parents garage as well, which is kind of a reason why I mentioned that, because obviously it presents other difficulties than being your own garage at home. Andy: But, yeah, so I was homebrewing with my dad in their garage, and then eventually that led to me deciding to turn that into something that was commercial. Rob (Host): Oh, brilliant. Rob (Host): So when did you know that you were hooked on beer? Andy: Well, I think it was probably kind of somewhere around that time, partly when all of my. Andy: But all of, well, mine and my joint holidays with Laura were just focused around beer. Andy: Every time I was going anywhere, we were planning in kind of tap room visits or looking at what pubs were there or what breweries we could visit or going to destinations, because there was beer festivals that were going to be on. Andy: So there was definitely an element of that where it was becoming kind of quite all encompassing. Andy: And then with home brewing, there was no need necessarily, with home brewing to be buying kind of new equipment all the time, to be solving every potential issue that you might have. Andy: And I was very much spending all of our money on new kit in order to be able to improve process. Andy: Exactly. Andy: Yeah. Andy: Lots of the shiny stuff. Andy: Lots of the shiny stuff was purchased. Andy: There are a combination of things. Andy: I was a very keen enthusiast, that's for sure. Rob (Host): You mentioned a bit of a background in project management, that kind of thing. Rob (Host): How translatable was that experience and qualifications and anything else you brought with you into brewing? Andy: Yeah, well, I think very relevant. Andy: Welcome that question, because I think from someone who is still, arguably, I still feel like I'm on my journey rather than have reached kind of where I'm aiming to be. Andy: But for someone who's very much trying or is operating in the beer world, I kind of initially thought that it was not transferable. Andy: But I think that's probably, as I say, just discrediting that experience to some extent, because I think in recent times, I'm actually really finding that the sort of project management, task management, like organizational prioritization skills that I kind of learned in the past are proving very relevant in order to make sure that I'm focusing on the right thing, that I'm planning for the future properly. Andy: And, yeah, just to make sure that I'm not kind of like running around without any clue as to what I'm doing, which is quite easy to do because there was lots of different things to do. Rob (Host): I think you need many hats. Andy: Exactly. Rob (Host): Only one of them is brewing beer. Andy: Yeah, but that's very true. Rob (Host): What else did you need to brush up on or develop? Andy: Yeah, so the master's course definitely gave me a very higher level of brewing knowledge and understanding. Andy: I mean, arguably more than anyone ever really requires. Andy: It was a three year course that took me five years. Andy: And it was taught at a very kind of high level. Andy: To some extent, I kind of understood the processes and I guess I had that kind of project management organizational skills that allowed me the confidence to feel like I could run my own operation. Andy: But, yeah, I was definitely lacking in some practical brewing skills that were beyond using my smaller home brewing kit. Andy: Yes, to some extent I tried to address, but I'm not sure I fully addressed it yet. Rob (Host): What kind of skills were they? Andy: Well, I guess really it was just like seeing how a bigger operation was. Andy: Whilst I was living in London, I did a day a week, essentially, kind of volunteering at a brewery called Mondo, which is in Battersea area in. Andy: So I think that was just kind of teaching me how. Andy: Well, I guess it taught me how much cleaning was involved in Peru, and that was my primary kind of role when I was there. Andy: Yeah, so I did. Andy: I definitely learned how to clean properly. Andy: And I'm a very enthusiastic cleaner. Andy: So I'm the sort of person which someone needs to come along and tell me to. Andy: It's fine now. Andy: The mop needs to be pulled out of my hands, otherwise I'll just keep going forever. Rob (Host): I suppose that's the trouble with doing brewing science and knowing about all the little bugs and things that are exactly. Andy: Living there probably is an element of that, I just think. Andy: Also my personality. Andy: I like things to be quite perfect. Andy: I don't think anything can ever be quite clean enough. Andy: I didn't have a practical brewing role there necessarily, but I was watching and I was seeing how things ran. Andy: I was watching how the packaging lines ran, I was seeing how the. Andy: Well, seeing the end to end brewing processes. Andy: I was learning a lot in my master's course around tanks and designs of things. Andy: And it allowed me to be able to picture things much better and to be able to see things in operation which was actually really valuable. Andy: And, yeah, definitely part of the puzzle I was missing. Rob (Host): And what's the beer and brewing community been like as you've gone through this journey of scaling up from home brewing to brewing at scale in your garage? Andy: Yeah, so amazing, really. Andy: I don't think I can speak more positively around that. Andy: I think I probably had a kind of a misconception to start off with that because I was just, in my head, someone or some setup that was fairly small and insignificant in my garage. Andy: No one would really have much time or time to be able to kind of talk to me. Andy: But, yeah, definitely proved very wrong on that front. Andy: Certainly, like every brewery in the local brewery scene or beer scene and further afield, has been incredibly kind of good with their time and very helpful in answering questions or teaching me parts of the processes that I'm not aware of or supporting me with things that I don't have. Andy: For example, I often use Phantom's cold room. Andy: Double bowed have helped me with kegging. Andy: I buy things that I need through other breweries. Andy: When I can't order it, I try and limit the number of pallets that turn up to the garage. Andy: It's quite a residential area and I don't have anywhere to store things. Andy: Really? Andy: Yeah. Andy: Very helpful. Andy: And beyond breweries in terms of kind of retail vendors and bottle shops and pubs, again, as soon as I had beer to sell, I had people locally who were interested in stocking it. Andy: And obviously, to have that support when you're starting off and people who are going to help you out in order to be able to move things forward is very grateful. Andy: And then I guess there's another step to that, which is the local beer drinkers, which are also kind of a big part of me being able to kind of move things forward because we get an incredible amount of support by the local kind of beer drinking community, and a loyal support as well, that people want to buy or get hold of our releases. Andy: And we'll come back to the. Andy: We sell at the Redding farmers market. Andy: We got lots of regular customers coming to. Andy: Yeah, I guess it's something that took me by surprise initially and something that I've been very grateful for ever since. Rob (Host): Are there any words of advice that you'd say to a young Andy or someone looking to get into brewing and doing what you've done? Andy: Yeah, I don't know. Andy: I know some people's answer to this question is probably don't do it. Andy: But I. Andy: I certainly wouldn't say. Andy: I wouldn't say that. Andy: I think it's probably the way that you go about it, really, rather than saying don't. Andy: I certainly wouldn't want to kind of quash anyone's dreams of getting into the brewing industry. Andy: I certainly had them, and there's no reason why anyone can't make it work. Andy: I think I probably would say, don't think that you can go from a to b instantaneously and don't discredit the journey that you have to take and the experience that you're getting in between those stages. Andy: So I think probably it would be difficult for anyone to kind of go from me, which is very little experience, to owning a large brewery. Andy: But that's not to say that working in the beer industry in some capacity isn't useful experience. Andy: And the contacts that you make and the people that you meet, that's all of value. Andy: So, yeah, don't get frustrated with it and stick at it and have a long term goal. Andy: And so long as you're kind of broadly gathering some skills within that path, then I'm sure you'll get there eventually. Andy: Yeah. Rob (Host): Thank you very much. Rob (Host): I think there's definitely something about that, about there's not a traditional route in through all of these things. Rob (Host): It could be any number of ways to do it, but it's about, in a way, putting your time in immersing yourself in these things and, yeah, I guess picking up as you go along. Andy: Definitely. Andy: Yeah, it definitely should never be undervalued. Andy: The importance of kind of relationship building and the people that you meet just by being present at events, whether that's at beer festivals and having an opportunity to speak to people from other breweries, or working in a bar somewhere, or just popping into tap rooms and talking to people. Andy: All of that is useful and people are there to help, so take advantage of it. Rob (Host): What does your average week look like these days? Andy: Yeah, so it is something that would be quite variable, I guess, these days. Andy: A lot of my focus over the lot this year, and specifically has been trying to grow the brewery. Andy: I've been in the garage for three and a half years. Andy: And, yeah, I don't think I said at the beginning, but the brewery was set up in 2020, and it was always supposed to be kind of a way to allow me to kind of build experience in kind of recipe development and developing the brand, and building local demand and following. Andy: But it was never the end goal, really. Andy: It was supposed to be a starting point. Andy: Yeah. Rob (Host): I wonder if you can describe your garage setup that you use as well at the moment, because people might hear garage and have one thing in their mind. Rob (Host): Can you take us there and paint a picture of what the space is like? Andy: Yeah, of course. Andy: With the doors closed, it would just look like any other residential garage. Andy: You would have no clue that this was stealth brewery. Andy: Yeah, exactly. Andy: A stealth brewery. Andy: You wouldn't really know that a brewery was there at all. Andy: So it's in a cul de sac just outside reading, and it's kind of a standard single garage from the outside, but then from the. Andy: Yeah, we've kind of converted it into a small brewery. Andy: So there's the standard vessels that you'd see in a much bigger brewery, just on a smaller scale. Andy: So we go through exactly the same process on a smaller batch size. Andy: There's lots of freezers now because I like to acquire lots of fruit in season and then to be able to have it available for when I need it. Andy: So you have quite a lot of freezer space, quite a lot of fridge space. Andy: Every time I've thought that we couldn't fit anything else in the garage, we've been able to find a way, but I think we're definitely reaching the point where that's not going to be possible any longer. Andy: There's also lots of aging tanks where I have beer kind of sitting on fruit for a period of time. Andy: We make beers that are kind of a quicker turnaround process and beers that take longer, but I try and have, like, three or four beers that are aging, and other than that, there's not really much room for anything else. Andy: That's pretty much it, really. Andy: But, yeah, so, yeah, just a residential garage, really. Andy: But, yeah, definitely trying to kind of move things on from there and, yeah, so that's really what my focus has been this year, because, as I was saying, I think in my head, I thought maybe like a year or so, but obviously, there's been various challenges that have kind of delayed progress somewhat, but three and a half years later is definitely time to look at kind of what's next. Andy: And that's certainly what's been occupying kind of a large amount of my time recently. Andy: But in addition to that, there's all of the elements of production and packaging, and then making sure that you can sell the beer and make sure you have the ingredients that you need and the things that you need when you require them. Andy: I'm probably on my laptop at least kind of like one or two days a week sometimes in total, in terms of just doing accounts, updating the website, various things like that. Andy: There is a number of different jobs involved when there's very few people running the operation. Andy: Yeah. Rob (Host): And how much of your time is spent brewing per week if you're focusing at the moment on growing the business? Andy: Yeah, at the moment, not a huge amount. Andy: So I brewed a number of beers over the summer. Andy: Really? Andy: So they could be aging. Andy: I brewed this week, I'm brewing next week, but then I probably won't brew again until next year at some point. Andy: So, yeah, quite infrequently, really. Andy: I'd imagine I've brewed more than about 15 times in the whole year. Andy: Not a huge amount. Andy: I mean, in previous years, probably more than that. Andy: I was trying to produce as much as possible, but that was to the detriment of me being able to move things forward. Andy: So I've definitely tried to slow off production a bit. Andy: I've got a number of beers on the go that are aging, so that I will have a number of beers that I can package in the next kind of two or three months. Andy: But, yeah, I've definitely tried to slow production down to allow me enough time to try and move things forward because that also requires quite a lot of time and effort and looking for new premises and business plans and things like that. Rob (Host): And so you have quite an interesting model in that I guess you're brewing beer, whether it's beer to sell now or beer that you're aging for a while before selling, but you kind of periodically open your online shop and you're present at different markets and things to sell it. Rob (Host): How does that work? Rob (Host): And I guess, how did that come around? Andy: Yeah, so when we started, we started kind of, as I said, 2020, and it was lockdown sort of time. Andy: So we needed to be able to sell beer via online shop just because there was not a huge number of routes to getting it to customers. Andy: When we opened the brewery, the online shop was very much part of it, but largely because of the. Andy: We don't have a huge volume, but also due to licensing, we tend to open the shop infrequently. Andy: So we were doing it where we opened for like a day, sold a load of bottles, and then we'd open another day when we had stock. Andy: Now we're tending to open and keep the shop open for a week, and the next time we're doing that is in December, and that's December, the 9th. Andy: The online shop will open for a week and then deliveries when the shop ends. Andy: But, yeah, also reading Farmers market, we sell it again. Andy: That was something that was still open whilst during lockdowns. Andy: Again, it was allowed us to have a route to market, but also we really like the farmers market. Andy: It's definitely something that we're really pleased we do. Andy: It's part of our plan to continue doing it. Andy: It's not just that we're small, that we're at the farmers market. Andy: We think we'll continue to do that as we get a little bit bigger, just because it's a really good opportunity for us to be able to sell directly to the people who buy our beer. Andy: But also it allows us opportunity to reach kind of a new audience as well. Andy: There's plenty of people that come to the farmers market that aren't coming thinking that they're going to buy a dolphin sour. Andy: And sometimes when they've queued up for their eggs and donuts, they come and see us. Andy: That's always good because I always really like the opportunities to be able to sell beer to new people and also people that may have not tried that style of beer before. Andy: That's always very fulfilling. Rob (Host): And you mentioned your wife, Laura, who's also co owner of the brewery. Rob (Host): But how do you divide your roles between the two of. Andy: So it's very much is a partnership. Andy: I don't think I would be able to do it without her. Andy: I largely focus on the production side of things, so I make the beer and to some extent, kind of like plan which beers that we're going to make. Andy: I guess Laura is much more focused on the more creative part of the brewery and how we present ourselves to the public. Andy: She's kind of a communications branding professional, so that's more of her area. Andy: We're both very present at markets and if we're at beer festivals, we try and we try and both attend those. Andy: We try and present ourselves as a partnership in managing the brewery and how we sell our beer. Andy: Our relationship is kind of integral to the brand and social media. Andy: We want people to know us, we want to meet people, we want people to kind of be invested in us. Andy: We kind of make quite a lot of effort collectively in kind of meeting our customers and knowing something about them and building kind of relationships with them. Andy: That's not kind of a deliberate, kind of sneaky thing. Andy: We actually enjoy doing that. Andy: It's not kind of like we're going to get to know you and it's like a marketing ploy. Andy: It's a natural part of the business. Andy: We enjoy that part of it a lot. Rob (Host): I want to talk as well about your beautiful branding that you have on your bottles. Rob (Host): And I'll pop a link to this in the show notes so people can click on it. Rob (Host): And have a look through. Rob (Host): But it's a really simple, elegant line drawing that you've got that kind of gives the silhouette the outline of a dolphin and it carries through all your other branding. Rob (Host): But how did that come around? Andy: Yeah, so I think when we started, I say we, but this is probably very much more laura. Andy: But when we were thinking about branding, obviously we needed to achieve certain things. Andy: One, we obviously wanted it to be kind of like, recognizable. Andy: We definitely wanted it to be kind of quite clean and quite straightforward, quite simple. Andy: We also particularly didn't want it to be overly masculine in its appearance. Andy: We wanted it to look inviting for everyone. Andy: And I guess also we wanted to be able to have label variations which weren't going to cost us loads of money. Andy: I guess there's a certain element of the simplicity that is driven by the fact that we can't have a new label every time just because we're a small brewery and having paying for kind of redesigned labels. Andy: But having said that, I still think we would probably keep a certain element of that simplicity, that kind of cleanness that we. Andy: That we have in our labels. Andy: It's funny, when we first had it, I really like how clean it is. Andy: It's the sort of thing, when I think this is with anything, when you're looking at something so much and you're not looking at it with fresh eyes over a period of time, I start to kind of wonder, is it too simple? Andy: But a friend of mine who actually runs wilderness brewery in Midwest once said to me that he thought it was confident. Andy: And that's what I go for now, because I think confident is probably a good word to describe them. Rob (Host): It also looks like, to me anyway, it's like echoes of wine branding, certainly echoes of mixed firm and things like that. Rob (Host): So you've got all those sorts of cues, I think, as well. Rob (Host): As well as it being certainly less masculine. Andy: Yeah, and we're definitely going to push that further when we start doing beers that are aged in barrel and when we start to move to bigger batch sizes, which will coincide with kind of refreshing the brand a little bit and definitely kind of moving in that direction even more. Rob (Host): So, really, what would you say your brewing philosophy is? Andy: Well, I think I like beers to be kind of quite straightforward ish. Andy: I mean, I'm not sure that describes my beers, but in terms of the style, there's definitely a thread, I think, that runs through the beers that I make in that I definitely feel that they're fairly light and drinkable for sour beer. Andy: They're quite dry so then they're not sweet and thick sour beers. Andy: They're the sort of sour beers, I hope, that people would want to have more than one of. Andy: They're light, but also pack quite a big kind of fruit character. Andy: I'm not sure that's a brewing philosophy, but that's kind of what I've been doing in terms of the beers that I make. Rob (Host): I've got a question as well about your levels of sourness, which I saw you referenced your website. Rob (Host): You're known for making sour beers. Rob (Host): How do you approach that? Andy: Yeah, in terms of level of sourness. Andy: I mean, if you were to measure sourness on a ph meter and measure acidity in that way, they're probably fairly sour. Andy: But then I personally would never describe them as that because I don't think that they're ever that much more sour than the fruits that have been used in them. Andy: There's a beer that I've released recently with black currants. Andy: Black currants arguably have a tartness and a sourness associated with them. Andy: I've mellowed that out by blending with a rye saison. Andy: And, yeah, I don't think the finished product is particularly sour, but obviously it's a scale. Andy: But I do sometimes worry that kind of sour is used as a term that might be kind of off putting to people. Andy: The beer world describe the beers that I make as sour, but I mean, in another parallel dimension, they might be described as fruit beer, and sour just wouldn't be a term that would be at the forefront of descriptor, as a descriptor. Andy: And sourness might be an element to it, but it wouldn't be the first word that you'd necessarily come to. Andy: And sometimes it's just I'm conscious of the word sour to people that may not drink beer, or this style of beer frequently might be kind of off putting. Andy: And actually, when people have said to me, oh, I don't like sour beer, and then they have tried the beer, they often like it. Andy: I do worry about kind of the essence of what sourness kind of conjures up in people's minds. Andy: But, yeah, I don't think they're that sour. Rob (Host): I think that's really interesting about whether it's fruit beer or sour beer. Rob (Host): To your point that lots of people have maybe had a sour beer, likewise had a really bitter west coast IPA, and then they think all beers are like that. Rob (Host): Yeah, I think with all these things, it's a scale, isn't it? Rob (Host): And you're moving up and down parameters. Andy: On there are again, I think a lot of people sometimes would try kind of like a Belgium, like gers or lumbic, which is very dry and often cannot have hardly any fruit in them at all and can perceive, like, a real high level of acidity. Andy: But actually, in my beers, there's not a huge amount of residual sweetness, but there is. Andy: There is a certain amount, and with the. Andy: The fruit character to balance things out. Andy: Yeah, I don't. Andy: I don't. Andy: I don't think that they're. Andy: They're. Andy: They're not that much more acidic than. Andy: Not than wine or cider or other similar sort of drinks. Rob (Host): And what's the thing that you enjoy the most about brewing? Andy: Yeah, I think probably this probably is what we touched on a little bit earlier when I talked about selling beer and having a presence at reading farmers market. Andy: I definitely feel like it's the end product, where you've got a beer that you're happy with and that you're selling it with confidence in it to people that are hopefully going to enjoy it. Andy: And whether that's at the market or at beer festivals, which we've been invited to a few recently, that's certainly the point where I feel most fulfilled in the process in terms of production. Andy: I quite like the conceptual part of it, thinking about the beer and trying to design the recipe and what fruits I might use and what yeast or microbes I might use in the process. Andy: But, yeah, very much the bit that I find most rewarding would be the latter part of the process, especially a beer festival where you're actually pouring beer and you kind of get an instant reaction. Andy: Whether that's positive or not, it's still nice to be able to have that kind of interaction with people that are buying beer from you. Andy: Yeah. Rob (Host): And I guess on that point, would you prefer being on the one side of the counter serving beer or on the other side of the counter drinking beer? Andy: Well, I think these days, I think there's definitely been a switch, because the answer to that years ago would definitely have been the drinking part of the process. Andy: But I think as the breweries developed, and probably as I've developed skills I definitely didn't have in the past, I think I feel like I've much more enjoyed the part of interacting with the people that are buying the beer, having kind of conversations with them, and chatting about the beers that I've made. Rob (Host): Excellent. Rob (Host): And has your brewing process changed much since you first started? Andy: Yeah, I think there definitely has been shifts from a process perspective. Andy: I mean, we now naturally carbonate all our beer I wasn't necessarily always haven't been doing that. Rob (Host): Was there a particular reason for that? Andy: Partly because it's more in line with the direction of travel that I intend to go in most kind of mixed culture, kind of barrel aged, blended sour, or aged beers are naturally carbonated in bottle. Andy: And so it kind of felt like I was kind of moving in that direction anyway. Andy: So I might as well move with all of the beers that I was producing. Andy: But there was a very kind of, like, processy thing around packaging. Andy: Carbonated beer, for me, was very time consuming. Andy: I had a counter pressure bottling machine, which, if anyone isn't aware, it allows you to kind of pressurize the bottle and package beer that has been carbonated without all of the carbonation being lost. Andy: But it was do one bottle at a time, and it was really slow. Andy: It would take me hours to package on 100 and 2130 liters. Andy: So, yeah, moving to packaging uncarbonated beer is just much, much quicker. Andy: I now have, like, a six headed bottling machine where gravity bottling machine, which packages beer that isn't carbonated, and I can package my whole bright tank in about an hour. Andy: Nice. Andy: Yeah, it makes me enjoy that part of the process a lot more than I used to. Rob (Host): Yeah, absolutely. Rob (Host): And then people were getting bottle conditioned beer. Andy: Exactly. Andy: Yeah, exactly. Andy: I do like beers that have been naturally carbonated. Andy: I mean, a lot of people would argue that there's no difference, but I think having yeast in the bottle, in contact with the beer, still kind of cleaning things up and doing its job, is not necessarily a bad thing. Rob (Host): What's your favorite ingredient to brew with? Andy: Yeah, I think in terms of core ingredients, I think I probably would pick yeast. Andy: I really have enjoyed experimenting with different yeast strains to kind of value the flavor, kind of the flavor profile that different yeasts can bring, and also just how critical yeast is in the process of making good beer and how it can also be very critical in making bad beer as well. Andy: It's definitely known for lots of off flavors, that's for sure, and more so when I've been kind of experimenting with kind of Brettonomyces yeast, which is yeast that is not traditionally used as commercially available brewing yeast. Andy: Yeah, I've definitely enjoyed. Andy: Bret produces a huge range of fruity flavors, which is the sort of Brett strains that I like to use. Andy: And, yeah, that's definitely not everyone is doing that, but when you get a particular strain that produces a huge amount of pineapple or something, for example, it's pretty amazing, really, because there's no pineapple in there, but it tastes very pineapple. Rob (Host): And how do you balance, like, a yeast and bacteria? Rob (Host): Do you use both in all your brews, or does it vary depending on what you're making? Andy: Yeah. Andy: So almost all the beers that we make now would have bacteria in them. Andy: So that would be like lactopacillus culture of a couple of different strains that would be pitched in with the yeast at the start of fermentation. Andy: So all of my beers are made through copitching both yeast and bacteria. Andy: And then, yeah, I guess there are times where there are certain beers I do where I would want a little bit of acidity from the bacteria without too much. Andy: And in those instances, I've just brewed an iteration of a beer called outlaw, which is a Bret parallel that I do with peach. Andy: I do pitch bacteria in that, but I kind of control it through hops, because the bacteria is quite hop sensitive, and so it allows a little bit of acidity, but without getting too much. Andy: And if it did start getting too much, I would just dry hop it and it stops. Rob (Host): Good old hops. Andy: Yeah. Rob (Host): What do you think people would be surprised to know about beer and brewing? Andy: Obviously, there's a lot about it that's not brewing in terms of kind of managing a brewery. Andy: I mean, my own setup, there's a lot of time spent on processing fruit. Andy: Like chopping fruit, managing fruit, processing fruit. Andy: It's kind of a big part of my particular brewery. Rob (Host): That's another hat you're wearing entirely there. Andy: Yeah, it is, yeah. Andy: I think the fruit element of the beers that we produce is probably not really. Andy: Not really particularly considered, but because I always use whole fruit and sometimes foraged ingredients, there can be quite a lot of effort involved in that. Andy: I've recently been doing a couple of beers with red currants, and we picked 50 kilos, over 50 kilos of red currants from a field in. Andy: It was from kind of a pick your own farm that had been stopped and being run as a commercial venture because the couple who ran it had retired. Andy: But I knew there was still, like, plenty of fruit in the field, so I asked if I could. Andy: Well, I asked if it was still available, and they said, yeah, go and help yourself. Andy: So I felt like I needed to kind of take advantage of that. Andy: Pick lots of red currants. Andy: But, yeah, my mum and dad are very helpful in that as well. Andy: They help me a lot with the processing of the fruit and picking fruit, and picking elder flowers and elderberries, and all the other kind of forage things that we go out for. Andy: Certainly an element that I really like, and definitely an element that we want to try and exploit more when we grow, especially if we move out of the garage to somewhere that's more rural. Rob (Host): On that topic, then where do you want to go with the dolphin brewery? Andy: Yeah. Andy: So the immediate step, really, is to be able to, as I say, move out the garage, find somewhere that's bigger. Andy: I've been very much looking for a barn, something that's quite rustic, quite characterful, something that's probably more rural than on an industrial site, because it fits with the seasonal part of the brewery and just with where I want to take things, really. Andy: As I kind of alluded to earlier, I was kind of close to kind of sorting leases out on a couple of places, which sadly fell through. Andy: And I think, actually, probably what that might mean is that in the immediate future, I might have to compromise a little bit on the end goal, which is very much in the countryside, quite raw or quite characterful, because there's just a practical element to getting a space like that viable for running a brewery. Andy: In. Andy: The immediate plan, really, is to get bigger, get barrels, get more beer aging in barrels, because although I've been able to acquire some barrels, I've not been able to use them because there's just no space in the garage for that. Andy: So the direction of travel is very much to be able to age beer and barrel blend, age on fruit and release beers that are more beers like that. Andy: That's not to say that the beers that we do at the moment intend to do those as well. Andy: But, yeah, also, the plan is not to set up a brewery at the new place. Andy: The idea is that I'll be doing work, production off site and then using the new location for just fermentation and maturation, aging, things like that. Andy: But, yeah, I think that's very much the immediate goal. Andy: But there is still an ultimate goal of having a more destination place somewhere that's in the countryside or in a rural setting. Andy: But, yeah, there might be another iteration of the brewery. Andy: Before I get to that point, would. Rob (Host): You be bringing the wild yeast from your garage with you? Andy: I don't know, actually. Andy: I've never really cultivated the garage yeast yet, but, yeah, maybe not from the. Rob (Host): Dusty rafters above the brew kettle. Andy: Yeah. Andy: Well, to be honest, I've never used any of the. Andy: So far, all the use that I've used has been commercially available or just on the fruits that I use. Andy: But, yeah, I'm not sure the garage yeast is going to be up to scratch. Rob (Host): What would you say is your favorite beer to drink. Andy: I think of all of the questions, this is probably the most difficult one. Rob (Host): Just one beer. Andy: I always find that one quite difficult. Andy: It's definitely something that in my beer drinking career, it's definitely something that I've thought about quite a lot. Andy: It's difficult. Andy: I think if I go back to the beers that I enjoy drinking most, and the starting point to this is I enjoy all beer. Andy: I enjoy all beer styles. Andy: I very much think that my favorite beer is the one that I've picked that's most appropriate for that time with the people that I'm with or not very happy to drink alone at home. Rob (Host): As well, or out, as long as there's beer. Andy: Yeah, exactly. Andy: I'm still quite drawn to cask beer in pubs more often than not, at fairly kind of sessionable strength. Andy: It always used to be things like Oakham Citra locally. Andy: I've always been a big fan of lodden hullabaloo. Andy: I've really, really enjoyed that. Andy: Andy. Andy: Andy. Andy: Andy Parker. Andy: Elusives kind of cask like parallels. Andy: I've always kind of drawn to those. Andy: But I guess if I'm going to have to pick something, I'm also a big fan of belgian beer and Rochford ten has always been a particular favorite of mine. Andy: It's obviously not the sort of beer that I'd go and have a session on, but a beer that I come back to semi regularly that I really appreciate for its kind of complexity, yet kind of like drinkability and its lovely, kind of caramelly, kind of dried fruit kind of character to it, which. Andy: Yeah, I think it's my favorite beer in some occasions, but I have lots of favorite beers. Rob (Host): Yeah, I'm a strong proponent for right beer for the right time. Andy: Exactly. Rob (Host): Always a good beer for that, isn't there? Andy: Absolutely. Rob (Host): And what's your best place to enjoy a beer? Andy: Yeah, I think for this, then. Andy: It very much is a pub for me. Andy: I enjoy the variety of kind of beer drinking establishments that we're fortunate to have locally and further afield. Andy: I really enjoy kind of a tap room experience and beer festivals. Andy: But I don't think anything can quite top a nice kind of local pub or country pub or something that just feels. Andy: Well, something that has often lots of kind of history to it, and often something where lots of people before me have enjoyed that space. Andy: And yeah, there's something just very kind of comforting about enjoying a beer in a nice pub. Andy: So, yeah, pubs. Andy: Pubs for me, love of pub. Rob (Host): Excellent. Rob (Host): What's the one thing you wish people knew about beer? Rob (Host): What do you think is the biggest misconception people might have? Andy: Yeah, I mean, I guess there's an element of. Andy: It depends who we're talking about in this question, but I think probably a misconception that I guess sometimes come against is that people think there's not a beer for them. Andy: And I will probably argue that these days there probably is a beer for most people. Andy: I mean, I've had some experience working in bottle shops and pubs. Andy: I personally would be up for the challenge of feeling like I could find a beer for. Andy: For most people. Andy: So I think when someone says they don't. Andy: Don't like beer, I think that probably is some level of misconception, really, because I think there's such a variety now that there is, yeah, it's definitely something lucky now. Rob (Host): I mean, previously, the pallet of beers you had to pick from was quite small, but. Andy: Exactly. Rob (Host): So many now. Andy: Exactly. Andy: And there is. Andy: I mean, there's beers for people who don't drink alcohol. Andy: There's beers for people who might appreciate wine, there's beers for people who might more appreciate something that tastes like a soda or something. Andy: There's so many different things. Andy: I'm sure there is something for everyone. Andy: And I think if someone's experience of beer means that they've written off the whole world of what beer can offer, I think there's probably something that could be addressed there. Rob (Host): Excellent. Rob (Host): If tomorrow you were made prime minister of the beer industry, are there any changes that you'd make? Andy: Oh, prime minister of the beer industry. Rob (Host): I think that's a position that exists, yeah. Andy: I'm not sure I'd want the job, though. Andy: I don't know, really. Andy: I definitely think. Andy: Well, there's probably kind of quite a trivial thing here. Andy: If I was made prime minister of the beer industry, I'd like a way of being able for people to be able to try a lot more beers that they may not necessarily buy. Andy: So kind of, I guess, leading on to my point previously, I think I'd probably send everyone a pack of samples of a range of different beer styles so they have exposure to these things. Andy: I think there's definitely a thing whereby if you've never tried a 750 mil bottle of mixed fermentation sour, a lot of people are just never going to ever buy that. Andy: We once was involved in a bit beer club that was run by the grumpy goat beer shop in Reading. Andy: There was a crossover blendery beer that was part of beer club, and everyone absolutely loved it and everyone went and bought a bottle, but no one was buying that. Andy: No one was buying that bottle before. Andy: And there's definitely something about kind of exposure and people having opportunity to try things, because if more people had those opportunities, then there'd be a lot more people buying that style of beer. Andy: So, yeah, that's probably quite a trivial point, but I guess also, again, just making sure that all places where people buy beer as kind of welcoming and as accepting for everyone as they can be. Andy: Because I certainly remember when I was kind of getting into what's termed crop craft beer sometimes it didn't necessarily feel like it was for me, and it was the interactions I had with people and bars didn't necessarily feel welcoming. Andy: It was almost kind of felt like it was a bit of a club. Andy: And I think the more that those barriers can be broken down in the sense of beers are kind of a club for certain type of people and not for others, and more that it's kind of for everyone, and there's something there for everyone. Andy: And so, yeah, the more that it's accessible and inviting and welcoming for everyone, all the better for it, really. Rob (Host): Absolutely, yeah, definitely think that beer is for everyone, more the merrier. Rob (Host): And there was definitely a thing, and probably still is with craft beer, that it's a little bit gatekeeped as into who's welcome within it. Rob (Host): What are you excited about in beer? Andy: Well, yeah, in some way beers or kind of the newer kind of craft beer scene is quite young, really. Andy: Obviously there's maybe like ten years or so in this country, so it's definitely established. Andy: But I don't know, I'm very much looking forward to seeing kind of where the breweries that are still around, where they're taking things in kind of the 2030 years time. Andy: Certainly I've been traveling around recently, visiting lots of breweries, blenderies, certainly breweries that have beer stock in barrels and yeah, I mean, a lot of the blenderies bar kind of maybe little earth project or burning sky, and even they're not very old, a lot of the baristock is kind of fairly young. Andy: So for me, I'm really excited about a time where breweries have got plenty of beer that's like four years old or three years old, and a blending from different years, and there's an occasional batch from ten years old. Andy: And I think at the moment there's not so much of that. Andy: There's lots of breweries that are kind of building that stock up, but there's not the same level of depth of beer sitting in barrels as in Belgium or maybe parts of the states. Rob (Host): Can you imagine the collaborations you could have from one brewery to another who's blending together several, like three or four year old barrels? Andy: That's true, actually. Andy: Yeah, that would be amazing. Andy: There's definitely a time where there could be quite a lot of that, and different breweries are all pulling in a barrel of three year old and barrel aged beer, which there's not that many breweries at the moment that could do that. Rob (Host): What have you got coming up at Dolphin Brewery? Andy: Well, we're probably kind of getting to the end of the kind of calendar of events that we've had this year. Andy: So we've actually been fortunate enough to have presence at quite a few festivals, which was kind of definitely beyond my expectation. Andy: So we've been at Little Earthfest and Rivington, and recently at Salford Beer Festival as well as some others. Andy: But in terms of what's left, we're opening up our online shop before Christmas. Andy: That's probably the main opportunity for people who are living in the local area to be able to buy beer directly from us. Andy: So that opens on the 9 December and it will be open for a week, and then we tend to do deliveries in one kind of batch after that. Andy: And, yeah, that's the main thing. Andy: I'm trying to think if I've got anything in the diary for next year, but I don't think I really have at this point. Rob (Host): Is a plan to do more festivals and things like that. Andy: Yeah, very much so. Andy: I mean, we've really enjoyed that this year and we've been felt quite fortunate, considering our size, to be able to be invited to some beer festivals that certainly been personal favorites of mine. Andy: Definitely want to do more, and I'm making a kind of deliberate effort, actually, to start kegging a little bit more than I have been. Andy: Most of our beer at the moment has been really restricted to local bottle shops, from our online shop locally, and from the farmers market, which is also local. Andy: But because we've not had opportunity to expand this year, whilst I'm in the process of making that happen, I'm trying to produce more kegs, which will mean I will start trying to ship those out a bit further. Andy: Further afield, just because there's only so much of kind of talking about your beer on a national level, but then not having beer to supply that. Andy: I need to kind of try and do something about that. Andy: But yeah, more festivals and hopefully trying to get the beer out a bit further afield, but hopefully a good position. Rob (Host): To be in that there's more demand at the moment than beer. Andy: You can make. Rob (Host): So you're just, I guess, going to be working towards making more beer and building those relations at the same time. Andy: Exactly. Andy: Yeah, it's definitely been. Andy: Definitely been good to be able to have the time in the garage, to be able to build connections with people who run bottle shops around the country and to kind of build a certain level of demand for the beer. Andy: Yeah, it's now time to make that happen and actually try and get some beer out a bit further afield. Andy: Heading in the right direction, though. Rob (Host): Fantastic. Rob (Host): So I think that's probably all we've got time for today, but I just want to say thanks very much, Andy. Rob (Host): Where can people follow you and keep up to date with everything? Rob (Host): Dolphin brewery. Andy: Yeah, well, thanks very much, Rob. Andy: Yeah, cheers for having me on the podcast. Andy: So, yeah, we have our web shop, which website, which is wW dolphinbrewery. Andy: Co. Andy: Uk.com. Andy: And there you can find out a bit about us, some blogs and things on there, although I must confess I've not written one for quite some time. Andy: But also we have presence on social media, all of the usual places. Andy: Our handle is Dolphin Brewery in all places other than x, which it is. Andy: Brewery dolphin. Rob (Host): Brilliant. Rob (Host): Well. Rob (Host): Thank you very much for listening and I hope you can join me on the next one. Rob (Host): And this is the part where I ask for your help. Rob (Host): If you haven't done so already, please subscribe to the podcast, leave a review or rating, or share it with others. Rob (Host): This really helps us out and helps other people find the podcast, particularly as we're starting out. Rob (Host): And you can follow us on social media search for we are beer people. Rob (Host): All one word. Rob (Host): You can also email us at wearebeerpeoplepod@gmail.com let us know what you think, share your thoughts, and if you have any recommendations for beer people you'd like to hear from. Rob (Host): And until next time, don't forget you, me, us, them, we are all the there's.

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